Linguist, poet and former rector of Unicamp Carlos Vogt received the title of professor emeritus at the University on October 16, in recognition of the relevant services provided to science, culture and the University. The ceremony, presided over by rector José Tadeu Jorge, was held at the Unicamp Convention Center and was attended by students, staff, teachers and guests. The awarding of the honor was part of the program to celebrate Unicamp's 50th anniversary, which will be officially completed on October 5, 2016.

In the following interview, Vogt talks about his satisfaction at having received the honor, recalls moments from his career at the institution and makes considerations about the mission of the public university and the future of journalism. He also reflects on ethics. “The ethical question is not simple, and it is even less simple in a society like ours, which is polyphonic, multifaceted and fragmented from the point of view of values ​​and ideologies. So, finding beacons that shed light on behaviors is not easy. When the world is divided into just good and evil, it becomes a little simpler. However, when too many shades of gray appear, things get very complicated.”

Jornal da Unicamp - You held the most prominent roles at Unicamp, including the most important of them, as rector. He was also president of Fapesp, secretary of State and received different types of honors. How important is the title of professor emeritus that you have just received from the University?

Carlos Vogt — From the point of view of the relationship with Unicamp, where I was able to complete my entire academic and professional career, I think it is a form of reciprocal recognition. On the one hand, there is the recognition of the University, through its representative bodies, which accepted the suggestion of granting the degree made by the Department of Linguistics, my home cell. On the other hand, it is a form of recognition from me towards the institution. I have always had a loving relationship with Unicamp. This relationship created, so to speak, a subjectivity in which an important way of coexistence was established for me and also for the University. Both parties managed to enrich this relationship in different ways.

JU - When exactly did this relationship begin? 

Vogt - The first time I visited Unicamp, I was still a boy. My first contact with the University was in 1969. The Barão Geraldo campus was a construction site. The Rectory operated in the center of Campinas. The administrative part operated where Cotuca is today. There were only a few sheds here. I came to talk to Professor Fausto Castilho to discuss my possible participation in the group that would create the Department of Linguistics. That was in October 1969. In November I was hired. Then, I went to France to do my master's degree. In 1970 I was already here teaching along with my department colleagues. From then on, I developed a relationship with the University that brought me a lot of satisfaction and joy. It is true that I and other teachers went through critical moments within Unicamp, but also through moments of consolidation of the institution. This helped to create emotional and sentimental ties.

JU - The project to create the Department of Linguistics was considered very bold for the time, wasn't it?

Vogt - Yes, it was a new and bold project. Unlike tradition, we chose to link the department to the Institute of Philosophy and Human Sciences [IFCH] and not to a faculty of Arts. It was a new project from the point of view of ambition, at a time when Linguistics was seen as the pilot science within the Human Sciences, especially from the perspective of Structuralism and Transformational Grammar. It was a time when it was intended, with Linguistics, to create an epistemological model that could work on the development of Human Sciences. It was an extremely original model. For my personal satisfaction, I entered a process that was already “turbocharged”, both by the dreams of Professor Fausto Castilho and by the enthusiasm of Professor Zeferino Vaz. So, I had the opportunity to experience childhood, the crises of adolescence and the maturity of University.

JU - Speaking of the maturity of Unicamp, you were at the forefront of several projects that contributed to the development of the University. Would you highlight any of these initiatives?

Vogt - As a manager, I had the opportunity to contribute to the consolidation of the University. This was done, for example, with the Quality Project, which boosted the academic qualifications of our teachers. I was also very pleased to create the conditions for the launch of the Technology Transfer Office and the opening of evening courses. Later, when I left the Rectory, I had the opportunity to create Labjor [Laboratory of Advanced Studies in Journalism], together with Alberto Dines and professor José Marques de Melo, through which we offered the first postgraduate program in Brazil in scientific and cultural journalism and, later, a master's degree.

JU - Based on all the experience that you yourself reported, how do you see the future of public universities in Brazil, Unicamp in particular? 

Vogt - I have the impression that public universities in Brazil have two major challenges to face. One of them is related to the steps to be taken towards consolidating the role of institutions in research and the production of new knowledge. I think that the university has consolidated its capacity to operate in the research area, including international insertion. Now it needs to open up to attract researchers from outside, who come here to seek references for the development of their studies. In this sense, I think that one of the projects that Unicamp could take on would be a program aimed at post-doctoral studies. Something that constitutes institutional and strategic action. 

Thinking about teaching, I believe that the University has a big challenge, which would be to develop a plan to expand the offer of undergraduate places. This is not a trivial task, obviously. But we will have to face the difficulties. This task can be made easier if we go beyond the limits imposed by traditional methodologies and technologies linked to education. With the limitations we have at the moment, it is difficult to think that we will be able to meet the goals contained in the National Education Plan, which talks about the inclusion of 37 million students in the next ten years. 

In this sense, I think it is essential that our public universities, including Unicamp, play a leading role in the adoption of resources based on communication and information technologies, so that it is possible to design a major public policy project capable of fulfilling the given goals. The goals are ambitious, but feasible, especially if we take advantage of these new resources. Obviously, I say this thinking about Univesp [Virtual University of the State of São Paulo, of which he is president], which not only has a strong relationship with universities, but also the ability, together with them and with Centro Paula Souza, conduct a process in this direction. If we want to contribute to the economic and social advancement of the country, this will need to be done.

JU - As coordinator of Labjor, how have you been following the crisis that Brazilian journalism is going through?

Vogt - This crisis is, to a large extent, related to what I said about education. Increasingly, challenges arise. At the same time, changes are occurring in the communications landscape. In the case of journalism, the whole issue is related to new media, which have created and will continue to create new conditions for communication and information. These new media, if not incorporated, will tend to produce negative situations for press operations within a traditional model. Newspapers, for example, already have a strong presence in the virtual field, with their websites, blogs, etc. These new technologies have changed not only the business plan of journalistic companies, but also the relationship conditions between the broadcaster and the reader.

This dynamic is very strong. Newspapers no longer have the role of informants. Today, they fulfill a much more analytical function. From the point of view of circulation space, newspapers suffered an important restriction. Just see that some are distributed free of charge at traffic lights, providing the reader with a synopsis of the news. In other words, the profile of the business changed. This change was quickly noticed by some, who adapted. Others, however, took longer to realize. In any case, I think that newspapers will not disappear, but their organization and the ways of relating to the reading public will change. 

JU - What is your assessment of the quality of scientific dissemination in Brazil?   

Vogt - Labjor followed the transformations that occurred in this segment. Labjor was created in 1994. In 1997, we proposed the creation of the specialization course, which began in 1999; Then came the master's degree in 2008 and we now have the doctoral project underway at Capes. The specialization was the first course of this nature in the country. We trained many professionals and witnessed the birth of several initiatives that showed how scientific journalism and science communication were being organized, developed and institutionalized. At the same time, the development institutions themselves became aware of this. Fapesp created a scholarship program. CNPq also took important initiatives to value the dissemination activity that accompanies research. In several of Fapesp's programs, researchers are encouraged to create forms of communication with society. Furthermore, the issue of science communication has become part of a need in contemporary society. Society has become aware that one of its fundamental characteristics is being supported by information and communication technologies and, consequently, by scientific development. Knowledge, in this sense, is a structuring factor of social relations. It never hurts to remember that there is no science without communication. It is in the form of communication that tests and proposals are validated or refuted.

More than that, the role of science in society is so important that the governance models for science itself have been changing. What was something private to scientists or governments now requires an increasingly open participation from society, which in turn has increased its influence on science governance decisions. I think there is still a lot of room for work in this field.

JU - Now asking the linguist, poet and writer. What are the roles of language and poetry in a context in which human relationships are strongly marked by instantaneity and ephemerality?

Vogt - The issue of instantaneity is also a major challenge. A condition that allows someone to construct a narrative about the world is the minimum distance of time and space in relation to the event. It is not possible to narrate the event while it is happening. It is possible to describe it, as the football announcer does. But it is not possible to narrate it. This distance represents a “trouble”. We have a society in which the version moves simultaneously with the event. In a way, this removes its ontology from the event, which is transferred to the representation of the event. This gives reality and concreteness not to what is represented, but to its representation. This is an issue that obviously has several consequences.

I think that this reflection needs to continue to be done in different areas, such as philosophy and literature. It can also be done through poetry. I think that poetry plays an important role in this process as it, as a poetic expression of the world, contributes to disseminating scientific knowledge. Today, scientific knowledge is created and produced through a highly codified language, at a level at which only the initiated can effectively establish communication. There is, therefore, a need to seek ways of communicating science that are not restricted to the circle of initiates.

These forms of communication need to promote openness of language. Language needs to leave the level of abstraction of pure logical demonstration to enter the field of sensitive communication. It is necessary to move from the digital expression of language to the analogue expression, based on metaphors, images, etc. In other words, it is necessary to raise awareness of the concepts so that society as a whole can follow, using their own experience as a reference. The challenge is to move from closed communication to open communication. It is a learning process for everyone, including scientists and journalists. This path, which goes from the hermetic to the open, is the path that goes from the language of science to poetry. Poetry therefore plays a key role in this communication effort.

JU - In your book “The Utility of Knowledge”, released in May this year, you establish connections between knowledge and the principles of ethics. In these times of profound attacks on ethics, what knowledge do we lack to reinvigorate these principles?

Vogt - One of the greatest achievements of the Western world originated in Greek society in the 6th and 5th centuries before Christ. It was the moment of birth of Greek tragedy as a literary genre and also of philosophy. This moment was important because the transition was taking place from a society organized under the principles of heroic relationships and the conception of justice as revenge, to a society that began to establish the parameters of social justice. Conflicts are no longer resolved through struggle but are resolved by society as a whole, through its representatives.

Tragedy is important because it seeks to represent this state of affairs, this transition. From that point on, the entire process becomes sophisticated over the centuries: institutions are consolidated and democracy matures. Despite this, we still live today with a lot of darkness, including that present in human beings. Recently, we had the episode of that massacre in São Paulo, whose motivation was the most primitive possible - revenge. We have a situation in which society advances and institutions are strengthened, but at the same time we continue to live with the primitive instincts of our biological inheritance. 

The ethical question is not simple, and it is even less simple in a society like ours, which is polyphonic, multifaceted and fragmented from the point of view of values ​​and ideologies. So, finding beacons that shed light on behaviors is not easy. When the world is divided into just good and evil, it becomes a little simpler. However, when many shades of gray appear, things become very complicated.

JU - Do you have new plans for Unicamp?

Vogt - Well, I continue working at Labjor. The new project is the implementation of the doctoral program, the proposal for which is currently being processed. I also continue working at Univesp in line with my previous comment, to establish conditions for the development of a project to expand undergraduate education in the State of São Paulo, in collaboration with public universities, the Paula Souza Center and the state government.